Katerina

A lot has changed in your business. So you went all in on your business in 2020. Is that correct? 

Nicole

Yeah. At the end of 2020. So really 2021 was the first year where I was all in. At the end it was like December 2020 where I had given my notice and left the 9 to 5.

So I had had, you know, clients and freelance stuff on the side before that. I didn’t just make the leap and the jump with nothing in place, but it is still a big change. Like, you know, quitting your salary, job, leaving the benefits behind, all that stuff. Yeah, it was still a big change. And then moving more to the online space where, yeah, you could have 20 years of copywriting experience, but everything is so different in the online world. So yeah, it was a big jump. 

Katerina

 Yeah, yeah it is. It’s kind of like you leave this place, you think you have these safety nets and everything safe and the paycheck comes in, and you have your retirement benefits and your whatever, and then you feel like you take the leap and there is no safety net. And you forget you are the safety net. And you have to remember that you have to build the skill set of seeing that you’re the safety net, that you have the skills and the confidence to do it. 

Nicole

Yeah. For sure. And you know what I was just thinking of the other day is that probably the biggest difference is when I was in the 9 to 5 world, I was a senior copywriter at a creative agency. All the copywriting projects would just land on my desk. All the projects were brought to me. Whereas when you’re solopreneur, your own business owner, you have to market and you have to do all the things to attract those projects. They’re not just going to magically land on your desk. So that’s probably the biggest thing. You put on like you were the copywriting hat, and then all of a sudden now you’re the sales team. You’re wearing all the hats, but, I mean, it makes it fun. And you certainly learn a lot, right? A lot of lessons learned, a lot of mistakes made. I would not go back in a heartbeat unless I had to. Of course. You know, nothing wrong with that. But. Yeah, I’m so happy to be doing this. 

Katerina

So how would you say your life has changed since? Because you’ve built your business around your lifestyle? Right. You just, you know, about having time with your family and your friends and traveling and and all of that. How how would you say from 2021 until now, things have changed? 

Nicole

Yeah. You know, to be honest. Like a lot hasn’t changed in a way since then because pretty much right out of the gate, I got pretty clear on what services I wanted to offer. In the very beginning on my website, I listed all the copywriting projects you can imagine. I could do this and this and this and this. There were so many projects that I listed. But pretty soon after, I decided to streamline this, and I’m just going to offer three core services sales page copy, website copy, email copy. Can I write the other things? Yes. Absolutely I can. But it just got so, cluttered and confusing for me because I never knew what I was going to market next. And I imagine it was confusing for my audience, What is she really known for? She’s just vomiting all this information of all this things that she can do.

So pretty early on, probably in 2021, I got super clear on just those three core services. And to be honest, in the last few years, I haven’t changed those services. I’m essentially still doing the same thing because they’re just so foundational for business owners and promoting your business. 

So, I guess my answer is, in a way, not much has changed. But I think me as a business owner, I have changed in the sense that I’ve learned to listen to my gut more.

For one, like if, say, there’s red flags about a client or a project, before, I probably would have been like, “oh, I need to take this. You know, this is a new business. I need to say yes to everything.” Whereas now, I’m just a bit more particular in the sense of if my gut is saying, “you might want to steer away from this,” I listen now.

So that’s probably the biggest way I’ve changed. And what else? I think the other thing is probably that in the beginning I was just buying all the courses, all the programs and ,nothing wrong with them, but I was just like, again, because of the transition from the 9 to 5 to the online world, I was just devouring all these courses. But, at a certain point it was like it was too much because then you have a million different ideas from a million different courses and you’re not taking action.

So in the last couple of years, I’ve pumped the brakes a bit on how many courses I buy.

And to be honest, I invest more in coaching or masterminds now versus those one off courses. So the offers are basically the same. Maybe just my thinking and mentality has changed a bit. 

Katerina

Yeah, we forget that we have to change. I mean you go from employer to entrepreneur. And I think you bring up a great point. I struggled with this too. You go from “this is my job description for my employer and this is what I do. And I do this on a daily basis,” to all of a sudden you step out of that and sky’s the limit. Like literally, if you can think it, you can do it. And then you start to see all these people and think, “Well, maybe I want to do that. Maybe I want to do that.” And the funny thing is when I work with new entrepreneurs, they know what they want to do. They think “this is the business I want.” They have the clear idea as to how they want to help people. But as soon as they step out and that little wavering, “do I really know what I’m doing?” steps in. All of a sudden it’s like, “oh, what is she doing? Oh, what is she doing?” And they lose the initial thing that they knew they were good at.

Now they are seeing everybody doing so many things that they didn’t consider before, and I love to see most of them go back to that original thing they wanted to do after they’ve bought all the courses, spent tens of thousands of dollars, tried all the new things, threw spaghetti at the wall, and they’re like, “oh, I need to simplify. I need to just focus on 1 or 2 things.” 

Nicole

 Yeah, it makes so much sense. And totally raising my hand here too, because yeah, it’s so easy to look at other people in your space, to look at other copywriters, other coaches, other designers, and think, “well, they just launched like a template library, so I should do that. Or they just came out with a new coaching program. I should do that.”

And man, that comparison. Even when you’re so confident in your skills and what you offer, you start to wonder, should I be doing that? Or, you know, should I be buying this thing? And yeah,  you really just have to put the blinders on and tune everybody else out and just focus on what you are good at and what you feel called to do. 

Katerina

 Yeah, yeah. And I think you bring up a good point too, with your intuition. It’s really hard to trust your intuition when you’re stepping into that new field, that new out. And like, you’re afraid to say no to anybody because what if there’s not another client? That is, I think nobody else wants to buy it from me. So you’re like, I have to say yes, but those are some of the most powerful lessons, because when you wind up working with somebody, that’s not a great fit. Challenges you. You do learn a lot about what you will tolerate, what boundaries you need to set, what you will say no to. It’s it’s definitely like you have to hone your intuition skills or or that ability to trust and hear your intuition and know it’s your intuition. Like with the warning bells, don’t. Don’t go there. Don’t do it. 

Nicole

 Yeah, yeah. And trust is such a good word. It’s also trusting that, okay, if I say no to this person, somebody else is going to come along. Or if somebody doesn’t come along next week, next month, that’s okay. Just, you know, having peace of mind that you’re making the right decision. 

Yeah, I mean, I would say for the most part, I have really great clients. I even my husband, he’s like, I’m just so jealous. Like, you, just you always sound like you work with the most amazing people and they give praise so freely, like they’re just the kindest people. And then he starts grumbling, like, when I’m in corporate blah blah blah. And I’m like, okay, okay, that’s a whole other conversation. But for the most part, I have the most amazing clients.

But I will say, if there have been, you know, 1 or 2 times where the project, you know, it didn’t go as well as planned…You know, everything was positive, but maybe not as well as planned, I can look back and see the signs, like there were red flags there that I ignored. 

Katerina

And then that’s just more lessons in your pocket. 

I even saw somebody say recently that they had a nightmare client. And it was a lesson for her on what she had to tweak in her terms and conditions.  She realized that “Okay. Now, I know I have to be very specific on how we communicate.”

And I think it’s so powerful that we tend to be like, “I resent this person, or I can’t believe I fell for this.” And you can really fall into that, like kind of defeated or like frustrated kind of mentality. But it’s always the biggest growth, right? It’s always preparing you so that you don’t have to go through that nightmare again.  And I think you’ve done a really good job of that. I think you attract in  great clients because of you as a person. One you’ve learned to hone those skills and that intuition, but also it’s your energy that you put out in your videos, in your interviews, and in your copywriting. Your writing and your energy in your writing is for a certain group of people, a certain group of entrepreneurs that approach their marketing in a specific way. You’re not attracting the bro marketers. You’re not attracting. You’re you’re attracting the women that you know, more heartfelt, want deeper connection with their clients. 

Nicole

Well, thank you I really appreciate that. Yeah, that is my hope, to attract those people and yeah, I guess I just, you know,  I was lucky to attract these amazing people. But yeah, I mean as a copywriter, that is part of it. Your copy can attract certain people and it can also, you know, strategically repel certain people to if you don’t want to attract a certain audience. 

Katerina

Yeah. Well you even say it in your book You want to relate to them. You want them to know that you get them. And so, you know those old school bro marketing and that scare tactic marketing, that’s not really getting to know your audience. It’s scaring them into working with you, which is horrible. 

Nicole

 yeah. Who wants that, right. That doesn’t end well for anybody 

Katerina

And it makes the buyer feel awful after like, oh, I bought this, I spent I did that once. I fell for it once and it was a $2,000 course. I was in a low point in my, you know, I didn’t feel good about myself. And I found these two people that were selling a marketing course, and it was such a scare tactic. If you don’t buy by this time, you could be stuck in this never having a client kind of thing. And now I think about that when I’m doing marketing, I’m reading your book, you really talk about  – no, you want to touch on the pain points, but you really want them to understand, that you understand what they want to feel, what they want to think every day, what they want to experience.  

Nicole

 That’s so key. I mean, the pain points, you know, that’s kind of a hot topic because some people will say, well, don’t even touch on the pain at all. Like, don’t even go there. You want the copy to sound positive all the time. But I disagree with that because you do have to touch on the pain, just in the sense of empathizing with your readers and showing you understand them. And also people don’t usually buy unless they have a problem they want to solve. So there’s some pain there and it’s okay to talk about it. But then you’re going to quickly segue into the positive. Like you said, you’re going to talk about the transformation and the end results and the feelings associated with that transformation too. So yeah, keeping it positive overall. 

They want to feel seen and heard and understood, and that comfort. Comfort is such a good word. 

Katerina

So let’s talk about your book because you’ve had this on your heart. You’ve thought about it for a while and then, then you magically wrote it. 

Nicole

Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, like, in some sense, I’ve always wanted to write a book. Like, ever since I was in my early 20s, I wanted to write a book, and I just didn’t know what I wanted to write about. And then there’s life and, you know, marriage and all this stuff, right? So it just kind of got put on the back burner and then. More so lately in the last few years, I started thinking about it again. And then it’s funny because I mostly read fiction, I mostly read murder mystery stuff like that, but then when it came to deciding what to write, I thought, okay, go with the anthem, write what you know. So I just knew about business as a female entrepreneur in the online space, so I wanted to write a book about that.

So that’s what I did. And in the beginning it was just that it was me thinking, okay, this is good. This book is going to be all about running a business as a female entrepreneur. It’s going to cover copywriting, of course, and other topics. And then it wasn’t until a bit later that I thought, yeah, but you know what?  I’m going to do this through the lens of an introvert because I’m an introvert. And, you know, many of my clients are too.

So yeah, that became the kind of I don’t want to say the angle of the book, but just what made it different. Everything was through the lens of an introvert – so copywriting, marketing, selling client boundaries, all those things.

Because as introverts, I don’t want to say it’s hard or anything like that. It’s just different. And there are unique, you know, perspectives we have or, you know, maybe challenges at some point. So yeah, it’s all through that lens. 

Katerina

 I wish early on in business because I’ve been in business for over nine years, but probably ten years at this point. That somebody would have differentiated between being an introvert and an extrovert because sales is so extrovert, right? When you think of sales salesmen, whatever. But also, you know, I’m old enough to remember advertising in the yellow pages. As opposed to advertising on the internet. And the internet is just loud. It is noisy. It’s here I am. Look at me, look at me. I need your attention for a second. Whether it’s a post, a a real an Instagram story, the intention is get people’s attention. And when you’re an introvert, it’s more like, don’t look at me, I want you to see the stuff. But I also don’t want to have to be in your face.

 And so I think a lot of introverted entrepreneurs fall into this, “I have to get so uncomfortable, like there isn’t a comfort zone for me to find in order to go out and make it.”

So then sales and marketing sounds so hard and scary and they think, “I have to follow the trends” because the thing is Instagram, all pictures and videos, TikTok videos, right? We forget that there are other ways of doing it, and that it’s okay to do the other ways and other ways work.

But it’s hard because we’re in a very noisy society now.

Nicole

 100%. And I can definitely relate because, you know, as we talked about when I moved from the 9 to 5 to the online space, I was like, oh my gosh, how am I going to stand out? I was confident in my skills, my copywriting. But all of a sudden, yeah, you hop on Instagram and there are a million people doing what you do. So I know some of that is scarcity mindset. But it’s also, again, those feelings as an introvert like, oh my gosh, am I going to have to be super loud or super bold?

And so that kind of was in my head like, geez, what am I going to have to do? Am I going to have to do marketing activities? I hate that. So this book is basically saying, no, you don’t have to do those things. You can still have a thriving business as an introvert, choosing marketing activities that  you actually enjoy.

And I do talk in the book about, as you probably read, about your comfort zone.

So the way I look at it is like I have two schools of thoughts on this. On the one hand, I think if something is just so out of your comfort zone that it doesn’t feel enjoyable, that it feels way too hard, harder than it needs to be, then my thought is just, you know, say no to that. You don’t have to say yes to that. But then, on the other hand, I think that as an introvert, you shouldn’t just use it as like an excuse. I’m an introvert, so I can’t do this. And you just kind of keep yourself in this tight space.

I do think that there’s room for expansion and growth and getting out of your comfort zone, you know, which I try to do.

Tomorrow I’m going to this in-person event where I only know a speaker who’s flying in from the States. I don’t know anybody else out of 60 women. And part of me is like, why did I sign up for this? I signed up because I want to see the speaker. But this is me reminding myself, you’re an introvert. Sure, but it’s okay to get out of your comfort zone and great things are probably going to come of it by, you know, expanding yourself. 

Katerina

 Yeah, I think that’s a great example. Like there is like this fine line between comfort zones, right. There’s the you need to stretch yourself, right. Like I remember you doing your first Instagram story talking on video? I remember that because you wouldn’t do it. And then you did it. And then you even said, this is my first one. Like I remember that, but you did it and now you do it. Do you do it like every single day? 

 No. Do you have to? No. 

 You did it. And that built up to you being on more podcasts and guess speaking right. That one video, that first one that you did got you to now you’re okay being interviewed on podcasts. I’m sure there’s a little bit of nervousness right. There’s that moment  that stretches you enough to be able to do it. 

Nicole

I love that. I love the clarity it brings of just trying something once and then you might be like, this is not for me. This takes way too much time and energy and it’s okay if it’s not.

You’re adapting it for you. And it’s funny. I was on a different podcast speaking with somebody else, and he had an interesting point. He said, I don’t like calling activities and extroverted activities and introverted activities. I just like calling them activities. But the way you approach them is different. So an introvert and an extrovert, both might be great at speaking, but maybe the introvert just needs, you know, more recuperation afterwards, or they need to prepare more than the extrovert would.

Katerina

You can do TikToks and reels without talking. You can do it with just be roll and copy. We’ve learned those types of things. You could do Instagram stories and never talk on them and just type away, which I even know there are people with millions of followers that do that they don’t actually show their face. There are other ways.  I like that perspective shift. Like they’re just activities that you adjust for who you are. 

Katerina

I want to talk about the title of your book, because I love the title, because I think most introverts would be like, yeah, so please don’t ask me to be loud. 

Nicole

Yeah. Oh, that is so funny. Yeah. Because the way it was before was I got a coach, and she had basically said that I should choose what my subtitle is right now. So the Introverted Girls Guide to Online Business. So she said, you know, that’s really literal. It’s very clear. It tells people what it is. Also, it’s searchable on Amazon. But I was like, I don’t know. I just had in the back of my head, “don’t ask me to be loud.” I knew it wasn’t literal. I knew it was more, you know, people wouldn’t immediately be able to tell what it meant. So she’s like, okay, well, why don’t you test it with your audience? So then I remember running a poll, I think it was on Facebook and yeah, everybody basically was like they chose “don’t ask me to be loud.”

And the story behind that is it was more kind of a nod to when I was in the corporate world where I was a copywriter. I had a couple of bosses basically say, you know, your writing is amazing. We love your work. You just need to be louder. You need to be bolder, you know, especially in meetings, because if you don’t speak up, people aren’t going to know you have these great ideas. And I really appreciated that because they just wanted the best for me. They wanted me to be recognized for my work, but I always felt a bit frustrated, like, but why do I have to be somebody I’m not? Why can’t my work just speak for itself? And how come the extroverts aren’t being told to be quieter? Why is it the quiet people are being told to be louder?

And then it also came into play when I quit my job and went to the online space, because then I thought again, am I going to have to be loud? Am I going to have to be bold? Somebody I’m not?

So yeah, that was the the story there behind the title. “Don’t ask me to be loud.” Just let me be me with the caveat that you know you can be yourself 100%, but just also be open to some, you know, growth and getting out of your comfort zone. 

Katerina

[00.29.02]

 I love that. I’m actually looking at the book as you’re talking because I’m like picturing the opposite being the title. And I feel like if it would have been The Introverted Girl’s Guide to Online Business. Like your book is about business. But, it’s such a personal book, right? There’s personal stories that you share, funny stories. So it’s not just like a “and then you do this and then you do this and then you do this” type book.

If it would have just been the Introverted Girl’s guide to Online business, it might have been overlooked more because it would be like, oh, another business book, but like, “don’t ask me to be loud” makes you think  “oh my God, I need that. Please don’t ask me to be loud! I’m scared to do this. It’s intimidating. Everybody’s asking me to be allowed on Instagram and TikTok,”  and you’re like, okay, yes, please don’t ask me to be loud.  I think it would have been like a different assumption of what the book was about.

Nicole

 Yeah, that is so interesting. I’ve never thought of that, but it makes sense because the title is more conversational and that’s what my book is.

Yes, I wanted a really conversational, relatable. I did not want it to be a boring, rigid business book. I wanted it to feel fun and engaging, and that’s why I added lots of stories to so it felt more human and yeah, just more personal. I basically just wanted people to read it and get to the end of it versus like, oh, this is too boring. I just want to put it down. 

Katerina

It does. I remember the stories too. Which is good because, we forget that business is part of our life, right? It’s not just business. We, most of us start our business to create this freedom to turn our passion into something we do more of. Have more time to go to baseball games, to travel, to see your family, to, you know, have some breath in our life or our space in our life. And so I like that you’re telling the stories.

Listen to the podcast episode to hear more about the tips Nicole Kepic shares in her book!

You can follow Nicole on Instagram @nkcopywriting

And on her website at https://nicolekepic.com/